Breeding of cats

[smudgley]

Originally Posted by sarahd

Hi Dawn
I think a good breeder should be one who puts their cats welfare and health first and foremost before anything else. They should consider carefully who and where their kittens will be rehomed to and where possible keep in touch with new owners although as you can appreciate that isnt always possible. Not having loads and loads of litter to the extent you dont know who's who and which father is to which litter. Although overlapping of dates on due queens sometimes cannot be helped due to excessive calling occuring.
I have pens in my garden but they are purely for the cats to get access to the fresh air and having the knowledge that they are safe and away from any danger. I would never bring my kittens up outside they would always be indoors joining in with the hustle and bustle of everyday life. Anyone who says they are in it for the money obviously hasnt bred before because as Charlie says somewhere else on a thread there is no money to be made. Yes ok we sell our kittens but at the end of the day they needed kittening pens in which to have their kittens safely, they need heat mats to keep the kittens warm, vet bills to ensure they are healthy or given any meds they need, food and litter obviously and then there is the purchase of the mother cat herself which in my breeds they dont come cheap.
As for the rehoming a queen after breeding i do and dont agree. If the queen has been bred from a few times which ideally should only be four litters in a lifetime i think less if problems occur then I feel IMO its nice if you can spey them and let them go to a family home where they will be lavished with love and attention in a one to one situation. They will never have that in a breeder home no matter how hard you try. Dont get me wrong i am not saying breeding cats are not loved and dont get attention far from it but they would benefit more in a pet household. I think its a nice way of saying thankyou to the queen for all the lovely kittens she produced and the hard labour and slog she had raising them to be able to give her some good years of love and happiness but again thats only my opinion.

Sarah

If you think it's a long hard slog for her to rear a litter, then why do you do it?

[borderdawn]

I think a good breeder should be one who puts their cats welfare and health first and foremost before anything else.

But only as long as they are serving a purpose?

I have pens in my garden but they are purely for the cats to get access to the fresh air and having the knowledge that they are safe and away from any danger.

Totally agree with that.

I would never bring my kittens up outside they would always be indoors joining in with the hustle and bustle of everyday life.

Totally agree with that too!

Anyone who says they are in it for the money obviously hasnt bred before because as Charlie says somewhere else on a thread there is no money to be made.

That I do not believe, reasons explained in a while...

Yes ok we sell our kittens but at the end of the day they needed kittening pens in which to have their kittens safely, they need heat mats to keep the kittens warm, vet bills to ensure they are healthy or given any meds they need, food and litter obviously and then there is the purchase of the mother cat herself which in my breeds they dont come cheap.

Your choice to breed these Cats of course you should provide them with the correct facilities, but you shouldnt use that as an excuse to breed them in the first place. Everything you have said there doesnt lie right with me, listing everyday needs of a Cat is no reason to breed or sell them, you do that because you WANT to, not because you NEED to!

If the queen has been bred from a few times which ideally should only be four litters in a lifetime i think less if problems occur then I feel IMO its nice if you can spey them and let them go to a family home where they will be lavished with love and attention in a one to one situation. They will never have that in a breeder home no matter how hard you try. Dont get me wrong i am not saying breeding cats are not loved and dont get attention far from it but they would benefit more in a pet household

There you go, thats it, making out that a Cat will be "better off" somewhere else, indicating that the life they have served with the breeder is not ideal for the Cat, but for the breeder in order to serve its purpose., THIS is what I hate about breeders on a biggish scale. This is also a common excuse given by dog breeders.

Thanks Sarah for your reply, these thoughts, like yours, are only my opinion and not aimed towards anyone really, I just wanted to highlight my feelings on why I think some breeders try to make out they do not do it for money, when for the most part they must do, otherwise why on earth would they do it, because 8 out of 10 times they dont keep a kitten and rehome the queen when they have finished with her. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Im NOT anti breeder, otherwise I wouldnt have pedigree dogs and Cats and show dogs too, in fact I would possibly of bred from my own bitch given the winning she has done and has proved herself in the field too, however she developed a closed Pyometra and she was spayed in order to save her, given the option of "trying" to cure it with anti-biotics in order for me to breed from her never entered my mind, and she will stay with me all her life.
Dawn.

[Kay]

There are bad breeders, and I use that word loosely, in both the cat and dog world and it seems to me that these are the only type of people who get noticed. The good breeders who care about their pets, be it dogs/cats or whatever, just get tarred with the same brush. When done properly abiding by all the GCCF rules and caring properly for your pets then you are lucky if you break even. (I can prove this as I keep an accounts book and I am more than willing to show it to whoever wants to see it.) However that isn't what good breeders are in it for. They are trying to improve on the breed. I personally would not rehome a cat after he/she had been neutered as first and foremost they are my babies and I think it is nice to see different generations. I do keep some of my kittens to improve on my lines as do all good, responsible breeders, the rest are sold to loving pet homes. I have only ever sold one girl for breeding (at pet price to a so called friend) and I had to take her and the neuter I sold to the same home back. For this reason, despite the fact I could make double money selling a breeding queen and triple for a stud, I won't do that again.
There are good and bad breeders as in all walks of life but while people continue to buy from the bad breeders then they will continue to breed. People don't always go about buying a pedigree cat/dog the right way. They set their mind on a breed and just go and get a puppy/kitten from the first breeder they see advertising instead of looking around. If the breeder asks you indepth questions about your family, home, knowledge of the breed etc then this is a good sign that they care about their babies and where they are going. In return good breeders like you to ask questions back and if they care they will take the time to answer anything you may ask. Another good sign is if they allow you to see their other cats. If they hide the others away and only bring out the kittens I would steer clear. The best indication of a good breeder though is by word of mouth.
So to try and cut down on bad breeders do a bit of research before buying a kitten. We aren't all bad.

[sarahd]

Right first can I reiterate I am NOT in it for the money and purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed. Yes there are other breeders out there that breed the same ones as i do but like you say i CHOOSE to breed also.
I am not saying that i breed the cats to be able to afford what the cats need. I am purely stating and pointing out that their is also expense that goes with breeding and its not all money in the pocket. I do choose to breed and of course it is my duty to provide my cats with everything they need. If i didnt that would constitute me as a BAD breeder wouldnt it?
Also can i state its not a case of use the cat till its no use and then palm it on. I have an ex breeding queen here and she hasnt been palmed on nor will she be she will be speyed and stay here to live out the rest of her life in luxury. But there are some cats that cannot live in a multi cat household and dont take to breeding therefore it is kinder for them to go and live elsewhere where they are settled and comfortable. Its in their best interests to be away from whatever stresses them out. Its NOT good breeding practise to subject them to stress that you know full well they get upset by. I also had an experience where i bought a kitten as a potential breeding queen. She had lots of health problems along the way and I paid out a fortune at the vets to see what was wrong with her. I didnt have to i had the option to give her back to the breeder and get my money back or a replacement. But she had tugged at my heart strings and i loved her so i was keeping her regardless of her being breeding potential or not. Unfortunately she had to be PTS in the end and that little kitten cat still stays in my mind and she always will do. She even has a memorial plaque in my garden along with my older cat who i lost a few years ago. So please DON'T judge me by something i may have miswrote or got across wrongly.
As for my previous post as Smudgley pulled me up on Slog is a term of phrase for hard work. Of course raising babies is hard work whether it be human or animal but if it put any of the cats in distress or things went wrong for any reason i wouldnt do it again with that particular cat.
I will get shot down no matter what i say or however i defend myself. To be honest i dont think i should defend my actions to anyone. I do what i chose to do but not at the expense of my cats health and well being and can hold my head up high and say this with truth and honesty.

Sarah
x

[borderdawn]

Sarah, this is NOT a dig at you, nor any responsible breeder, its personal thoughts of how peopels ideas of breeding should be. Look at it this way, if what you did was in dogs, you could well be called a puppy farmer, i.e breeding pet animals to sell, to supply the pet market, as you have never said you have ever bred to further your own interest within either of the breeds you have, and you have just said

purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed.

so if its not for money, do you charge a minimal price, say £100 per kitten, or is it top market value? You dont have to answer that at all, its just theoretical and making a point.

Some people do not like the "get rid" aspect of breeding, and its happening all the time, its pathetic to make excuses saying they will be better off because you will have known that from the start, but you chose to keep that animal regardless of its happiness as it was serving a purpose for you.

Dont take any of this personally, I work my terriers and come in for a HUGE amount of critisism regularly, however I respect everybody's opinion and truly understand that their views are different to mine.

Anyway I look forward to seeing Tilly grow, she's family!
Dawn.

[Hreow]

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

Sarah, I haven't read as many of your posts but I think you have a more diplomatic, teaching way of dealing with disagreements. I would guess you haven't had to deal with as much criticism as Dawn. Please don't feel anyone is out to get you, you have a lot to contribute to the discussion.

Can we agree to agree on the main thing, which I would guess would be that a good breeder does everything necessary to ensure the health and happiness of their breeding-stock and offspring, and do their level best to improve (or at least not worsen) the breed? And agree to disagree on the exact wording on the details? I don't want this to turn into one of those threads where half feel hurt and the rest feel misunderstood and/or indignant when we mean the same things only seen from different experiences and aspects. I think it is a valuable discussion, even when we're preaching for the choir like we are here.

And I think poor Prrrrfect has had more of an earful than she deserves as we've hijacked her thread... Maybe this should be continued in another thread?

[smudgley]

Originally Posted by sarahd

Right first can I reiterate I am NOT in it for the money and purely for the chance to be able to give someone the joy that i experience owning one of the beautiful cats i breed. Yes there are other breeders out there that breed the same ones as i do but like you say i CHOOSE to breed also.
I am not saying that i breed the cats to be able to afford what the cats need. I am purely stating and pointing out that their is also expense that goes with breeding and its not all money in the pocket. I do choose to breed and of course it is my duty to provide my cats with everything they need. If i didnt that would constitute me as a BAD breeder wouldnt it?
Also can i state its not a case of use the cat till its no use and then palm it on. I have an ex breeding queen here and she hasnt been palmed on nor will she be she will be speyed and stay here to live out the rest of her life in luxury. But there are some cats that cannot live in a multi cat household and dont take to breeding therefore it is kinder for them to go and live elsewhere where they are settled and comfortable. Its in their best interests to be away from whatever stresses them out. Its NOT good breeding practise to subject them to stress that you know full well they get upset by. I also had an experience where i bought a kitten as a potential breeding queen. She had lots of health problems along the way and I paid out a fortune at the vets to see what was wrong with her. I didnt have to i had the option to give her back to the breeder and get my money back or a replacement. But she had tugged at my heart strings and i loved her so i was keeping her regardless of her being breeding potential or not. Unfortunately she had to be PTS in the end and that little kitten cat still stays in my mind and she always will do. She even has a memorial plaque in my garden along with my older cat who i lost a few years ago. So please DON'T judge me by something i may have miswrote or got across wrongly.
As for my previous post as Smudgley pulled me up on Slog is a term of phrase for hard work. Of course raising babies is hard work whether it be human or animal but if it put any of the cats in distress or things went wrong for any reason i wouldnt do it again with that particular cat.
I will get shot down no matter what i say or however i defend myself. To be honest i dont think i should defend my actions to anyone. I do what i chose to do but not at the expense of my cats health and well being and can hold my head up high and say this with truth and honesty.

Sarah
x

I haven't pulled you up on anything sarah, I just found your remark a strange one. I had not posted on this thread until then, & regardless of my thoughts on breeding animals, I don't actually think it's a hard slog for them to rear a litter, I in fact think most cats love every minute of it. Obviously this is not justification to breed them (just because they like it) so basically I don't agree that it's a hard slog for a cat to rear a litter if it's done with the correct care & feeding regime in place. I will add again.... my thoughts on breeding have nothing to do with my thoughts on weather or not it's hard for a cat to rear a litter.

& I hope the final paragraph was not aimed at me as I have not shot anyone down for breeding their animals.

[sarahd]

I havent aimed any comment at anybody in particularly.
I agree that the first and foremost thing in breeding has to be and always will be the welfare of the animals.

[borderdawn]

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

I think you know me too well
dawn.

[dandysmom]

Originally Posted by Hreow

Infernal gall here:
Dawn has a very direct, no nonsense tolerated way of saying exactly what she means. She is often right and I have a lot of respect for her, even though she often comes across to me as harshly critical. I'm sure this is at least partly because of all the insincere or deluded rubbish she is faced with on a daily basis. There is some point that any good person (and I think Dawn is) has to deal the straight honest truth, whether it upsets someone or not.

Sarah, I haven't read as many of your posts but I think you have a more diplomatic, teaching way of dealing with disagreements. I would guess you haven't had to deal with as much criticism as Dawn. Please don't feel anyone is out to get you, you have a lot to contribute to the discussion.

Can we agree to agree on the main thing, which I would guess would be that a good breeder does everything necessary to ensure the health and happiness of their breeding-stock and offspring, and do their level best to improve (or at least not worsen) the breed? And agree to disagree on the exact wording on the details? I don't want this to turn into one of those threads where half feel hurt and the rest feel misunderstood and/or indignant when we mean the same things only seen from different experiences and aspects. I think it is a valuable discussion, even when we're preaching for the choir like we are here.

And I think poor Prrrrfect has had more of an earful than she deserves as we've hijacked her thread... Maybe this should be continued in another thread?

Beautifully expressed, Hreow!!! I agree 100%.