Breeding from moggies..intentional or oops litters

[Jac]

They normaly come into first call between 8 and 10 months. I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

[candyshandy]

I think there have been exceptions though

[Jac]

Yeh, there always are. Cats like humans cant read the rule book

[ellenlouise]

This might sound controversial but it is what I think. I have had three female cats and a male and I have been more than tempted to breed from them for selfish reasons such as it would be nice to see them have kittens etc... I obviously decided to neuter my cats as I realised after reading lots and seeing lots that it just isn't sensible. I am not a fan of breeding pedigrees really is most cases as there are so many breeders that do it for money there cats don't live in doors and they seem to just have cats for breeding. Yes you are furthering your lines and making the breed better but why?

I believe the only reason we have accidental litters is because we are to interested in what happens we want to give it ago. This is obviously generalizing and I know there have been accidental litters that could not have been helped and I also know that we have some very good caring breeders but we have to be honest warn people that may just browse on the site.

[charliebubs]

Originally Posted by Patch

What surprises me is how many people don`t realise, [ presumably because their vets don`t tell them ], that queens can be spayed at 3 months of age.
So many people wait until 6 months but of course many kittens can get pregnant at 5 months and bang, it happens, accidental litter from a kitten who is still such a baby herself
Having been involved in the past in feral round-ups and doing the post-op care and re-release for kittens and adults I know from experience that they are absolutely fine when done at that age and any of the the kittens I adopted myself over the years, [ including ferals and occasionally kittens I initially fostered with their mother`s who had been dumped for getting pregnant - in those cases I adopted the mothers too ], I have had the young`uns spayed at three months because I know there is simply no need to wait longer than that, [ any existing health issues aside obviously, same as any cat having a GA ] - but how many people generally speaking are aware of it or are not hung up on the old six month landmark which was never about maturity from a medical standpoint but simply an easy-to-remember guideline ?

I`m sure if there were more education out there about it so many accidental litters from baby-queens would`nt happen through people just not knowing their kitten can get pregnant at only five months of age herself

I'm all for early neutering, but unfortunately my vets won't do it. Despite the fact that early neutering has been going on in Australia and America for many years a lot of the vets in the UK seem reluctant to do it. My vet says that there hasn't been enough research, which personally I disagree with, if you Google it there is lots of information both for and against.

As a breeder myself I would certainly prefer my kittens to be rehomed already neutered. I have in fact advertised my present litter in my local Pets at Home as leaving here neutered. For me that will exclude the unethical back-street breeder people calling me in the first place

I am hoping to get my vets to change their minds regarding early neutering, as from what I've heard of other breeders that do it, the kittens actually bounce back from the GA quicker than most 6month plus kittens.

Originally Posted by candyshandy

I'm sure I've read somewhere that boys neutered too early can get urinary tract problems...... anyone else heard that??

It has been suggested, but there is actually no research so far as I am aware.

Originally Posted by Jac

They normaly come into first call between 8 and 10 months. I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

This isn't entirely correct. I know that ragdolls can be late starters and my Lily didn't call until she was 14 months old; but every breed is different. I've known of Siamese calling at about 4 months old

Originally Posted by ellenlouise

I am not a fan of breeding pedigrees really is most cases as there are so many breeders that do it for money there cats don't live in doors and they seem to just have cats for breeding. Yes you are furthering your lines and making the breed better but why?

I believe the only reason we have accidental litters is because we are to interested in what happens we want to give it ago. This is obviously generalizing and I know there have been accidental litters that could not have been helped and I also know that we have some very good caring breeders but we have to be honest warn people that may just browse on the site.

I agree that there are many breeders that do it for money - even GCCF registered breeders can be unethical, keeping more cats than they should, keeping cats in outdoor pens and then rehoming the cats when they are no longer producing kittens and making money for them But please, please don't tar us all with the same brush. Ethical breeders are all for doing something to stop the unethical breeders and the back yard breeders. For me, my cats are my babies and they will always come first and foremost.

As for why we want to "further our lines and better the breed"....I can only speak for myself, but personally, I'm not a breeder on a big scale and nor will I ever be. For me, the joy is in showing my cats and I have bred because I would like to have my own home-bred cats on the show bench and to see them doing well. That would be the ultimate reward. I am not and nor will I ever be in it for money, because to be honest breeding costs a fortune I've already had 2 vet trips with my 7 week old kittens because I'm the kind of person that wants any little ailment
checked and double-checked So my expenses at the moment are already way-up and that's before the vaccinations etc.........but that's my choice and I'm happier to know that my kittens are healthy and well, rather than make any money.

Finally, as for the "accidental" litter debate - having had an accidental litter I do not feel I should involve myself except to say that genuine accidents can happen. I am not an unscrupulous person and nor did I sell those accidental kittens to make any profit - they all went to good homes with friends of mine, or friends of friends. I have also worked at Wood Green Animal Shelter and seen that side of things; I have seen many pregnant cats brought in, or cats with young kittens and have spent a lot of time trying to educate people about the importance of neutering. I am now involved with pedigree rescue and rehoming.

I think it's possible to be an ethical, responsible breeder and also been involved in rehoming. In fact, I think it's essential. It's given me such a better understanding of the bigger picture.

[Elaine]

Originally Posted by charliebubs

I agree that there are many breeders that do it for money - even GCCF registered breeders can be unethical, keeping more cats than they should, keeping cats in outdoor pens and then rehoming the cats when they are no longer producing kittens and making money for them But please, please don't tar us all with the same brush. Ethical breeders are all for doing something to stop the unethical breeders and the back yard breeders. For me, my cats are my babies and they will always come first and foremost.

Interesting point, is there anything that the GCCF can do about such breeders?

[Patch]

Originally Posted by charliebubs

I'm all for early neutering, but unfortunately my vets won't do it. Despite the fact that early neutering has been going on in Australia and America for many years a lot of the vets in the UK seem reluctant to do it. My vet says that there hasn't been enough research, which personally I disagree with, if you Google it there is lots of information both for and against.

Cats protection advise 4 month spay for pets, [ as owners presumably are more likely to know where their kitten is at any time for one thing and can often be very accurate on the age of kitty ], but ferals are done at 3 months - often estimated of course - not least to minimise stress as many are beyond taming that that age so it`s a lot easier on them to be spayed younger rather than keep them confined for a month or more.
The vets I have used have been active for Rescues including feral round up neutering hence they have always been not just willing to spay pets also at 3 months but do suggest it to clients rather than the old fashioned, [ non-medical based ], 6 months of age, so if your own vet won`t do it at that age it would be well worth you talking to a vet who is active for a rescue org to have it done

I am hoping to get my vets to change their minds regarding early neutering, as from what I've heard of other breeders that do it, the kittens actually bounce back from the GA quicker than most 6month plus kittens.

Having had it done on my own and doing the after care for feral baby`s at that age I can wholeheartedly and unreservedly confirm that has been my experience of seeing how quickly and easily they have recovered compared to older spays even just of a few months age difference.
The ferals had glue rather than external stitches so they did`nt have to be kept confined to wait for stitch removal time and they were usually fit enough to be re-released after 48 hours - they were released to where they had come from and were monitored for a time after release of course in case any had any problems and needed to be caught again for treatment but I never had to get any of them back in, they sailed through it and I would say the worst of the whole thing for them was being confined around humans for a brief time, but op wise for the young `uns it was as though they did`nt realise they`d had an op at all because pain management is so easy for them as they heal so fast because young tissues regenerate at an amazing rate especially as they are growing so much at that age which from my observations seems to enhance the healing process hugely compared to a 6 month old who`s growth to adult slows a lot by them as they slip into adult build,[ hope my rather poor wording make`s sense, I know what I mean anyway

Some more science based info here :

http://www.princeroyalbengals.com/controv.htm

Apparently research was done in Australia which concluded overwhelmingly that the safest and most beneficial ages for spaying is in fact 6 to 8 weeks for girls, 12 weeks for boys, but I can`t find the link to it, I`ll keep searching though and will post it when I do find it

Many on the thread have mentioned neuter for boys at that they won`t have it done young but it`s the queens which get pregnant not the boys, so the queens need to be done at an age where accidents can be guaranteed to be avoided

Edited to add, forgot to include this link which is quite comprehensive especially as it highlights, [ to me anyway ], that people not feeling comfortable with younger spay - some vets included - is more about what people are traditionally used to rather than trusting in actual medical facts

http://www.messybeast.com/earlyneuter.htm

[Jac]

I agree that there are many breeders that do it for money - even GCCF registered breeders can be unethical, keeping more cats than they should, keeping cats in outdoor pens and then rehoming the cats when they are no longer producing kittens and making money for them But please, please don't tar us all with the same brush. Ethical breeders are all for doing something to stop the unethical breeders and the back yard breeders. For me, my cats are my babies and they will always come first and foremost.

Charlie people dont tar all breeders with the same brush.

This thread is about moggie kittens. Why some people say its an oops litter when it isnt and some jus out and out breed moggies.
Yes sometimes oops litters do happen but not often. Its just how some people seem to get away with breeding moggies and others get hell. I was asking what the difference is.

Your litter was a prime example of a woops. Like you would really put a Ragdoll to a local Tom!!!! and I remember what you went through.

[charliebubs]

Originally Posted by Jac

This thread is about moggie kittens. Why some people say its an oops litter when it isnt and some jus out and out breed moggies.
Yes sometimes oops litters do happen but not often. Its just how some people seem to get away with breeding moggies and others get hell. I was asking what the difference is.

Your litter was a prime example of a woops. Like you would really put a Ragdoll to a local Tom!!!! and I remember what you went through.

I understand this thread is about moggie kittens, Jac, but I felt that what I had to say was relevant anyway!!!

Personally, I am against breeding moggies at all. Just for the record

[Kay]

Jac, people do purposely put moggy to pedigree all to often. You only have to read the free ads online and they are definitely doing it for money as I have seen these kittens advertised for anything up to £200.