Territorial unneutered tom.

[Snoof]

So Sweep has been coming in and such, and at first he and Ninja got along very well and Ninja would be happily sitting next to him while he ate the dry food (Sweep won't touch the wet).

Then we slowly noticed that Ninja was lessening his time in the house... Until today, when our friend C saw Sweep scaring Ninja away from the food bowls. I've moved his set down onto the floor rather than the ledge, so now Sweep can eat on the ledge and Ninja can eat on the floor or vice versa, and I stroked Ninja until Sweep was on his way out... Which was when Ninja skitted and legged it outside.
Previously, we thought it was because the weather was so nice as Ninja always goes outside a lot when that happens. Now we know it's because Sweep has become territorial about Ninja's house.

This is not something we can tolerate, especially given Ninja's previous behavioural issues.

Ninja comes first - and while I'm glad I got to pet him and reassure him that I am still his human and it's still his house, I don't know what to do.

We will be trapping Sweep and taking him to the vet early next week (catflap is being put in on Saturday, then we're leaving it propped up with clothespegs for a few days before putting it down). Hopefully we'll be able to get him neutered soon after that, but once we've got him trapped I'm keeping him in a separate room by himself. We will be going in lots to give him company and he will have food, toys, and a litterbox.

Here's what I want to know: will this behaviour stop when Sweep's neutered? I know it takes about a month for the hormones to settle down after neutering, but I want to know if it's worth us trying to keep him or if it would be better if we gave him to the rescue. Will he, in other words, stop being so damned territorial? He's much bigger than Ninja and obviously, due to his possession of the magical testicles, much more aggressive as well.

I don't understand how come they used to get along and Sweep then started dominating massively. I'm worried that it might be because we petted him and made it clear that it was ok for him to consider this his house. I don't know what other course of action we could have taken, though - and Ninja is still ok now and would, I think, easily fall back into his previous behaviour once Sweep is eliminated from the equation (at least for the time being and until he's a proper neutered cat with the hormones of one). But I don't think he'll be ok if he has to put up with it on a long-term basis and I wouldn't make him do that anyway.

I would love to give Sweep a home, and so would Matt, but I'm somewhat worried that Ninja will now associate Sweep with dominance. Will the roles they seem to have fallen into change when Sweep is neutered? Is there any chance we can make it work without giving Sweep up to the rescue?

I know that with rats, if you get one rat dominating the other too much (males) you can get the dominant one neutered and it will generally change the hierarchy and make them much more peaceful - and will frequently allow them to live together whereas previously they couldn't. But I have always had my cats neutered before the problematic age, and if it's likely to continue being too stressful for Ninja because it's been left too late to neuter Sweep and turn him into a laid-back boy, I would rather not risk making Ninja miserable - I feel that my first responsibility is to him.

[Kazz]

I am not so sure about dominance but given Ninja's history I am not sure I would risk upsetting him by taking on Sweep.

I may be being harsh and maybe someone will say different but Ninja is not your average cat, he's extra special and needs that little extra thought. He sounds as if Sweep is in charge, if Ninja hadn't go the issues he had I ouldsay let them sort it out and both would end up amicable.

What does your gut instinct tell you?

[Fran]

I'm not really sure how the balance will alter once Sweep is neutered. Think I would get him neutered, give the hormones time to settle then see how things go..

[yola]

I would go with what Fran says too. Although there may always be some jostling for position, I strongly suspect that once Sweep is neutered he will become less inclined to dominate Ninja.

I would do the neutering as soon as you possibly can so they can settle down and you can make an assessment as to how the relationship is progressing and whether Ninja does accept Sweeps presence or indeed whether he needs to be an 'only cat'.

[Snoof]

The thing is Kazz, I would agree with you in a heartbeat - but Ninja adored Sweep at first (and Sweep has been coming here for a good few months now). He was happy as a clam - until Sweep decided the house was his and so was the food. I'm also confused because they were playing with each other maybe a week ago (I could be wrong on the timing, but not by much). I understand that unneutered toms are frequently more heavy-handed than neutered ones, but it's a shift in personality that really confounds me.

Nevertheless, I suspect you may be right. I was surprised to see Ninja get along so well with another grown male, nevermind an unneutered one, and I guess it was too good to be true.

I'm not saying my mind's made up, which it isn't, but I do think I'm leaning more heavily towards your "side"... It's sad, and I will be ringing the rescue and asking them for their advice as well, but it tore into my heart when I realised he'd been terrorising my little guy. Ninja's had enough to deal with and as soon as I can, I will be sorting this out and removing Sweep from him at the very least for the time being. He doesn't need to be bullied by a cat now on top of all the humans who've done the job quite nicely () in the first year of his life.

Ninja loves other cats, frequently tries to get two-doors-down's female in here, but never manages (she's too skittish). The thing I'm thinking is, Sweep is an adult cat and so is Ninja (well, Ninja is 2 but for all intents and purposes...) and that's always going to be more difficult especially as they're both male.

I do have to say, and I feel somewhat guilty about this, that I was delighted to see him run to me and get comfort from my presence. I know he still ran away when Sweep got too close, but knowing he took some courage from my presence and my stroking is yet another step in the right direction.

[Kazz]

Now you see of all the cats I read about on here your Ninja sounds so much like my Oscar its untrue.

Although Oscar lived with me from kittenhood his start in life and introduction to people was so harsh and horribly cruel, I really think his "limit" on acceptance people wise was me for many years yet over the years this increased to include close family. His confidence with people increased as the years passed.

But on occasion over the years he brought friends (cats) home but if that cat got too close to me and/or I showed any interest even passing such as a stroke to the stray cat Oscar would beat the poor cat senseless, as long as I tolerated the cats BUT showed not an iota of "affection" towards them he was happy to let them visit but only visit. Any kindness shown by me and they were evicted. But I had Cleo and he was more than happy to share me with her but she was here from the start.

Maybe as the years pass Ninja will improve like Oscar did.

I have a soft spot for Ninja maybe because I think of him as very like "Oscar" sorry.

But I think you have a good chance with the kittens. And by the way Oscar was neutured and the visitors were unneutured Toms many times.

But try what you think, you know the situation best.

[Hreow]

I think you're right about the petting. It made your house a place that was worth fighting for. Warmth, comfort, food and love - just what he needed.

Go ahead with you plan. Have him neutered and then kept apart for a while. He'll need to be somewhere, even if he is to be rehomed, and you can see how things woork out when the testes are no longer a part of the equation. Now that you know of the problem, you can see if they can solve it, and otherwise you'll do the right thing and rehome Sweep. You've given him the chance to be *somebody*'s cat, just perhaps not yours.

[Snoof]

Kazz, I see what you mean, except that Ninja being much smaller than Sweep doesn't stand a chance. He is immensely clever though - just now when I went to feed him he was sat by the hole they use for a door at the moment - swiping at Sweep every time he tried to come in! I must say, that idea might never even have occurred to me, so while I don't want to see Sweep hard done by, I'm also sort of proud of Ninja!

I don't know who's starting all of this nonsense, but I also suspect that Sweep being unneutered may be making Ninja less accepting of him as well, given he sort of has an upper hand there (in cat terms - in my heart I suspect no cat will ever come quite to Ninja's level given everything he and I went through to get him to be the way he is).

I think I will trap Sweep and get him neutered, then let him recover at my house (in a room where Ninja never goes but with plenty of food and entertainment and frequent visits). I'll decide what to do when that's sorted, because I do want him to get neutered regardless - even if it ends up being better if we just let him go back out where he's used to roaming (which I doubt - he's fairly sociable with humans even now, so I think he would benefit from a home) it'll be much better for the cat population at large and Sweep in the specific if he's neutered, and it'll save whoever gets him the trouble, the expense, and the option of not having it done.

I'm also contemplating the option of trying to find him a new home now, already. Given his striking appearance, I don't think it should be that hard to do, and if I find a home for him that I'm happy giving him to then I would be quite happy. The thing I'm having trouble with is not letting him go - especially with him being mean to Ninja now - but letting him go back to not having a home.

[Kazz]

Get him"done" and see how it goes, you never know they may become allies, sweeps muscle and Ninja's brains invincible

[Snoof]

Oh sure, and then they'll nick my bank card and buy scratching posts on ebay together, using Sweep's superior muscle power to "convince" the postman to deliver it to the catflap